The Bills would be 4-2 if not for our very special teams!

[HHURRICANE]

Re: The Bills would be 4-2 if not for our very special teams!

What you are ignoring though is that Jauron has an entire history of being the ****s, while the Bills STs have been the best in the NFL over the previosu three seasons, bar none. (and it is not even close)

April deserves some cosnideration.

Jauron not so much.

Bobby April has had the benefit of having the best players on the roster suited to special teams. Clements, Parrish, McKelvin, McGee, Moorman, and Lindell.

He's never had units that did well defending onside kicks which their is no stat for.

[TacklingDummy]

Re: The Bills would be 4-2 if not for our very special teams!

Bobby April has had the benefit of having the best players on the roster suited to special teams. Clements, Parrish, McKelvin, McGee, Moorman, and Lindell.

Fred Jackson. They must be trying to get him hurt so that they can cram the average Lynch down our throats.

[HHURRICANE]

Re: The Bills would be 4-2 if not for our very special teams!

No, i'm not. You're saying if it wasn't for 2 guys, Jauron would be 4-2... in your first thread. That's giving him credit for winning 4 games.

Last season, we were 5-1. In every win, you could see troubles with the offense. No win was easy. We needed 4th quarter heroics by Trent Edwards to beat some teams who were absolutely garbage last season. When we played horrid teams, they played right with us until the end when we pulled away. We all got excited. Then, we played good teams and got blown away. SD game we played great, and they had massive injuries but i will give you that game. Looking at those games, you could see the team was headed for trouble.

Even IF we were 4-2 or 3-2-1 right now, the way the offense has played against the Saints, the Jets and the Browns, tells you all you need to know about the outcome this season. Our offense is horrid and can not win games. They could have easily took over the Jets and Browns games and blown them out.... but our offense is horrid, DJ play calling is horrid and our entire system on offense is horrid and wouldn't lead to many victories. IF we were 4-2, it'd be false hope. False hope and a few more wins would mean a bad draft pick.

Again, you want all the balme to be on the coach. Jauron deserves his share...along with April, Van Pelt, Modrak, Barndon, and our owner.

You guys want a quick fix. Replace Jauron and Trent and we have a winner.

[HHURRICANE]

Re: The Bills would be 4-2 if not for our very special teams!

Fred Jackson. They must be trying to get him hurt so that the can cram the average Lynch down our throats.

Awesome!!!

[Demon]

Re: The Bills would be 4-2 if not for our very special teams!

Again, you want all the balme to be on the coach. Jauron deserves his share...along with April, Van Pelt, Modrak, Barndon, and our owner.

You guys want a quick fix. Replace Jauron and Trent and we have a winner.

I'm blaming more then one guy. But it all starts with the head guy. And Brandon is not a good football guy but i hope he sticks around once we get a football guy as GM. Brandon is way over his head as GM but as a marketing guy, he's actually pretty good. And according to like Peter King, he's well respected around the league. Out of those you named, he's the only one i'd keep. (obviously owner ain't going anywhere either)

[bigbub2352]

Re: The Bills would be 4-2 if not for our very special teams!

Bobby April has more to do with us losing than Jauron.

We'd be 4-2.

For all the crap Jauron has gotten he would have a winning record, and be in the playoff hunt if not for Leodis and Parrish.

This is why you draft for D first, offense second, and special teams never.

If you look at what HH is trying to say his point in my opinion is that for a team that puts so much media driven hype into there STs they have been very less than special and 2 plays because of ignorance cost us possible Wins

Now i understand that other games this yr have not been decided by specialteams
But HH does have 1 good point and that is we keep guys around like Corto, jenkins, mcyntire etc strickly for ST and to be honest thru 6 games have u seen those guys stand out?

I have seen one standout player on STs this season and that is John Wendling, but when your cutting depth players to accomidate STs players then we have a real problem
Our Depth and mismangement of our roster and pracitice squad (not devleoping depth consistently) has plagued us thru the Skeletor years for sure

Hence the signgings of more Street Free Agents this yr instead of promoting from the PS and developing players at positions of need there

We knew damn well we were thin at Oline Dline OLb yet we kept 2 WRs and career bums like Corey Mace on the PS when we kept 6 WRs on the regular roster
Why?
because some how Justin Jenkins is valuable?

i agree with HH on one thing and that is i would rather be ranked 15th to 20 in STs and have good quality depth and have a top 15 Offense and Defense
then keeping guys that provide no depth at there own position and have to be replaced by street free agents when the injury bug hits the team and then we spiral down hill with other teams castoffs

Any way you look at it, we still have guys like McCargo who we traded then brought back and what has he done to justify being in the NFL let alon on this roster
Corto, Jenkins, hawthorne, Huggins, Mace, Mcyntire all useless

Then on top of all of this you overpay and hold on to players that arent worth **** like Denney, Kelsay, Ellison (not overpaid just ****) Marcus Buggs, Spencer Johnson, Parrish,
and on top of that u miss huge and draft the wrong players every year and u get a very ****ty team

STs or not we need a complete overhaul of schemes and the players who fit them or we can all argue on here and nothing will change
We SUck all three units!

[HHURRICANE]

Re: The Bills would be 4-2 if not for our very special teams!

If you look at what HH is trying to say his point in my opinion is that for a team that puts so much media driven hype into there STs they have been very less than special and 2 plays because of ignorance cost us possible Wins

Now i understand that other games this yr have not been decided by specialteams
But HH does have 1 good point and that is we keep guys around like Corto, jenkins, mcyntire etc strickly for ST and to be honest thru 6 games have u seen those guys stand out?

I have seen one standout player on STs this season and that is John Wendling, but when your cutting depth players to accomidate STs players then we have a real problem
Our Depth and mismangement of our roster and pracitice squad (not devleoping depth consistently) has plagued us thru the Skeletor years for sure

Hence the signgings of more Street Free Agents this yr instead of promoting from the PS and developing players at positions of need there

We knew damn well we were thin at Oline Dline OLb yet we kept 2 WRs and career bums like Corey Mace on the PS when we kept 6 WRs on the regular roster
Why?
because some how Justin Jenkins is valuable?

i agree with HH on one thing and that is i would rather be ranked 15th to 20 in STs and have good quality depth and have a top 15 Offense and Defense
then keeping guys that provide no depth at there own position and have to be replaced by street free agents when the injury bug hits the team and then we spiral down hill with other teams castoffs

Any way you look at it, we still have guys like McCargo who we traded then brought back and what has he done to justify being in the NFL let alon on this roster
Corto, Jenkins, hawthorne, Huggins, Mace, Mcyntire all useless

Then on top of all of this you overpay and hold on to players that arent worth **** like Denney, Kelsay, Ellison (not overpaid just ****) Marcus Buggs, Spencer Johnson, Parrish,
and on top of that u miss huge and draft the wrong players every year and u get a very ****ty team

STs or not we need a complete overhaul of schemes and the players who fit them or we can all argue on here and nothing will change
We SUck all three units!

Thanks for getting my point.

For others that love April, how many wins can we attribute to Special teams over the last 3 years?

[Jan Reimers]

Re: The Bills would be 4-2 if not for our very special teams!

For whatever reason, April's STs have not been nearly as good as in previous years. McKelvin probably cost us the NE game, but if the offense gets us one TD against one of the worst defenses in the league, we beat the Browns.

[Billz_fan]

Re: The Bills would be 4-2 if not for our very special teams!

This is the type of discussion that occurs when the whole organization is dysfunctional. You can point fingers all over over the place and make a case for it. The whole thing is a mess.

To make another point. Has anyone notcied just how many truely bad football teams there are this year ? Parity has taken a year off.

[LifetimeBillsFan]

Re: The Bills would be 4-2 if not for our very special teams!

For whatever reason, April's STs have not been nearly as good as in previous years....

What Bobby April's STs have done in year's past has nothing to do with how they are performing now. And, that is the point that must first be understood in order to grasp what HHurricane is saying.

While there is no guarantee that the Bills would have won the games that have already been mentioned or the New Orleans game, which has not come up thus far, the fact remains that the Bills would have been in a much better position to win those games had Parrish and McKelvin not fumbled and the special teams performed much better (as they have in previous seasons).

Yes, the Bills would have had to get a first down on the ground against the Pats to run out the clock if McKelvin had not fumbled. But, even if they had not gotten a first down, they would have taken time off the clock, the Pats would have had to use all of their time outs on defense, and, most importantly, Brady would have had a lot farther to take his team to a winning TD in far less time following a successful punt by Moorman in that instance. As good as Brady was in the fourth quarter, the way the Bills had played, they would have stood a far, far better chance of winning that game if McKelvin doesn't fumble. That much is undeniable.

Despite the Bills' offensive struggles, the Bills were still very much in the game and their defense was playing extremely well before Parrish botched the punt return against New Orleans. If Parrish runs up and fields the ball cleanly instead of letting it bounce and then failing to pick it up, the Bills have good field position in a tight ballgame. Even if they don't get a first down on offense, they would have been in a position to pin the Saints back deep on a punt. Instead, the Saints get the ball in easy scoring position and the Bills are so utterly deflated that they are never able to get back into the game at all. The Saints end up winning what was a close defensive struggle going away as a result.

In the Cleveland game, the punt hit the ground on the Bills' 40 yard line. Parrish should have fielded it at the 41-42 at least--if he was doing his job correctly, the ball never should have bounced back to the 20 yard line. Even if he just makes a fair catch at the Bills 42, the Bills are in good shape--far better than they ended up being in! If the Bills only gain 5 yards on the ground during the ensuing possession, they would have pinned the Browns inside their 20, if not inside their 10. Given the way they were playing on offense, there is no way that Cleveland scores from there. None. At worse the game goes into overtime (and maybe ends in a 3-3 tie). If the Bills managed to move 30 yards on the possession following that punt or on the punt that would have followed Cleveland's next possession, they would have been in position to win the game with a field goal of their own. Could the Bills have moved the ball 30 yards in one of two possessions at that point? As bad as they had played on offense, the Bills were the only team on the field that showed the capacity to move the ball that far at that point in the game. Buoyed by getting the ball in great field position (if Parrish fields the ball cleanly on the fly as he should have), the chances of the Bills offense moving the ball 30 yards to give Lindell a shot at winning the game were certainly greater than the chances that Cleveland's offense would have been able to move the ball 50-60 yards to get in field goal position.

And, that's not taking into account the morale effect. If McKelvin doesn't fumble and the Bills hang on to beat the Pats, the morale of the Bills team would have been sky-high. As pumped up as they were against New Orleans, a win against the Pats followed by their win against the Bucs would have had the team even more convinced that they could pull out a win against the Saints--which they would have been in a much better position to do if Parrish doesn't turn a close defensive struggle into a blow-out with his fumbled punt.

If the Bills win only one of those two games, do they play better against Miami and Cleveland? There is certainly a chance that they would have gone to Miami feeling a lot better about their chances if they were 2-1 instead of 1-2, especially if they had been able to keep the score close against the Saints. And, even if they had still lost to Miami, would their chances of pulling out a win against Cleveland have been greater if they were 2-2 and Parrish fields that punt the way he should have. No question.

While there is no guarantee that the Bills would have won any one of the three games where their special teams gifted the opposition points at a crucial point in the game, the fact remains that the odds that the team would have won at least one, if not two of those games would have been far greater. And, if they had won only one of those games, the team would be 3-3 and in second place in the division. If they had won the two that they were most likely to win if the special teams had performed properly, they would be 4-2 and in first place in the division--and would be the toast of the town.

And, I've just focused on the most obvious miscues by the special teams thus far this season. There have been at least two long returns negated by penalties and a couple of long returns surrendered because the kick coverage men have gotten out of their lanes. These are kind of mistakes that the Bills' special teams did not make in previous seasons, but are making now.

If you want to blame Dick Jauron for all of this because he is the head coach, fine, you can do that. If you want to blame Jauron and Van Pelt for how poorly the offense has performed or Jauron and Fewell for mistakes the defense has made (including how poor the run defense has been) or Jauron and Brandon because they decided to go with a young, inexperienced offensive line rather than the underachieving, overpaid veterans that they had last year, fine, too.

But, the fact remains that HHurricane has made a good point: the odds of the Bills having won at least one and probably (as in probability) two more games thus far would have been far greater had the Bills' special teams performed up to their past standards and not made the egregious mistakes (the fumbles by McKelvin and Parrish) that they have made--particularly in the games against the Pats and Browns. And, if the Bills had won those two games, things would likely be very different right now.


P.S.: It should be noted that NOTHING that I have said should be in any way construed as defending Dick Jauron or the way that the rest of the team has been selected, coached or played. These comments are strictly directed at how the special teams have played and the mistakes that that unit have made.

[HHURRICANE]

Re: The Bills would be 4-2 if not for our very special teams!

What Bobby April's STs have done in year's past has nothing to do with how they are performing now. And, that is the point that must first be understood in order to grasp what HHurricane is saying.

While there is no guarantee that the Bills would have won the games that have already been mentioned or the New Orleans game, which has not come up thus far, the fact remains that the Bills would have been in a much better position to win those games had Parrish and McKelvin not fumbled and the special teams performed much better (as they have in previous seasons).

Yes, the Bills would have had to get a first down on the ground against the Pats to run out the clock if McKelvin had not fumbled. But, even if they had not gotten a first down, they would have taken time off the clock, the Pats would have had to use all of their time outs on defense, and, most importantly, Brady would have had a lot farther to take his team to a winning TD in far less time following a successful punt by Moorman in that instance. As good as Brady was in the fourth quarter, the way the Bills had played, they would have stood a far, far better chance of winning that game if McKelvin doesn't fumble. That much is undeniable.

Despite the Bills' offensive struggles, the Bills were still very much in the game and their defense was playing extremely well before Parrish botched the punt return against New Orleans. If Parrish runs up and fields the ball cleanly instead of letting it bounce and then failing to pick it up, the Bills have good field position in a tight ballgame. Even if they don't get a first down on offense, they would have been in a position to pin the Saints back deep on a punt. Instead, the Saints get the ball in easy scoring position and the Bills are so utterly deflated that they are never able to get back into the game at all. The Saints end up winning what was a close defensive struggle going away as a result.

In the Cleveland game, the punt hit the ground on the Bills' 40 yard line. Parrish should have fielded it at the 41-42 at least--if he was doing his job correctly, the ball never should have bounced back to the 20 yard line. Even if he just makes a fair catch at the Bills 42, the Bills are in good shape--far better than they ended up being in! If the Bills only gain 5 yards on the ground during the ensuing possession, they would have pinned the Browns inside their 20, if not inside their 10. Given the way they were playing on offense, there is no way that Cleveland scores from there. None. At worse the game goes into overtime (and maybe ends in a 3-3 tie). If the Bills managed to move 30 yards on the possession following that punt or on the punt that would have followed Cleveland's next possession, they would have been in position to win the game with a field goal of their own. Could the Bills have moved the ball 30 yards in one of two possessions at that point? As bad as they had played on offense, the Bills were the only team on the field that showed the capacity to move the ball that far at that point in the game. Buoyed by getting the ball in great field position (if Parrish fields the ball cleanly on the fly as he should have), the chances of the Bills offense moving the ball 30 yards to give Lindell a shot at winning the game were certainly greater than the chances that Cleveland's offense would have been able to move the ball 50-60 yards to get in field goal position.

And, that's not taking into account the morale effect. If McKelvin doesn't fumble and the Bills hang on to beat the Pats, the morale of the Bills team would have been sky-high. As pumped up as they were against New Orleans, a win against the Pats followed by their win against the Bucs would have had the team even more convinced that they could pull out a win against the Saints--which they would have been in a much better position to do if Parrish doesn't turn a close defensive struggle into a blow-out with his fumbled punt.

If the Bills win only one of those two games, do they play better against Miami and Cleveland? There is certainly a chance that they would have gone to Miami feeling a lot better about their chances if they were 2-1 instead of 1-2, especially if they had been able to keep the score close against the Saints. And, even if they had still lost to Miami, would their chances of pulling out a win against Cleveland have been greater if they were 2-2 and Parrish fields that punt the way he should have. No question.

While there is no guarantee that the Bills would have won any one of the three games where their special teams gifted the opposition points at a crucial point in the game, the fact remains that the odds that the team would have won at least one, if not two of those games would have been far greater. And, if they had won only one of those games, the team would be 3-3 and in second place in the division. If they had won the two that they were most likely to win if the special teams had performed properly, they would be 4-2 and in first place in the division--and would be the toast of the town.

And, I've just focused on the most obvious miscues by the special teams thus far this season. There have been at least two long returns negated by penalties and a couple of long returns surrendered because the kick coverage men have gotten out of their lanes. These are kind of mistakes that the Bills' special teams did not make in previous seasons, but are making now.

If you want to blame Dick Jauron for all of this because he is the head coach, fine, you can do that. If you want to blame Jauron and Van Pelt for how poorly the offense has performed or Jauron and Fewell for mistakes the defense has made (including how poor the run defense has been) or Jauron and Brandon because they decided to go with a young, inexperienced offensive line rather than the underachieving, overpaid veterans that they had last year, fine, too.

But, the fact remains that HHurricane has made a good point: the odds of the Bills having won at least one and probably (as in probability) two more games thus far would have been far greater had the Bills' special teams performed up to their past standards and not made the egregious mistakes (the fumbles by McKelvin and Parrish) that they have made--particularly in the games against the Pats and Browns. And, if the Bills had won those two games, things would likely be very different right now.


P.S.: It should be noted that NOTHING that I have said should be in any way construed as defending Dick Jauron or the way that the rest of the team has been selected, coached or played. These comments are strictly directed at how the special teams have played and the mistakes that that unit have made.

Wow, that was awesome. You wrote my thread better than I did!!!!!!

I don't think I even need to defend myself anymore after this post!!!

This is why you are so respected on this site.

[Marvelous]

Re: The Bills would be 4-2 if not for our very special teams!

Well in retrospect, how many games over the last couple years HAVE our ST's won us games. But My freaking NE streak ender, OUR NE streak ender was shattered by ST's play. But i blame the ******, not Bobby APril for that one.
--I guess they need to tighten up though. I just thought o' something. Last week i was worried every time we we're on kick/punt coverage that we we're gonna get flagged for something orother. And that's unusual.. Tighten up Bobby!!

[djjimkelly]

Re: The Bills would be 4-2 if not for our very special teams!

I'm not defending Jauron. I'm just saying that two plays may have given our loser coach a winning record.

The bigger point is that you draft guys that can play football, not special teams. I actually believe that are team would have finished no worse the last 3 years without Boby April being here.

all the more reason to have a different coach becuz if this loser was a real coach those plays wouldnt happen and we'd have a real O